Carthaginian Dido Fake & eBay Sociopaths?

[cogito]

The following "rare" coin was up on eBay for sale and had a few bids, then apparently someone decided to do an end-run around other bidders and get the seller to sell the coin directly undercutting the fair auction process. The die looks good relative to a known copy of this coin, but the surfaces look really suspicious (if not over-cleaned). Call me callous, but I hope the sociopathic buyer who cheated the bidding process in an attempt to "get theirs at the expense of others" ends up with a nice modern curiosity and nothing more...call it karma. Am I right about it being fake?

I will note that I contacted the seller during the bidding process to inquire about the coin's weight and was told that they did not know the weight and that their scale was "broken" and they couldn't tell me the weight. Alarm bells...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=280007490697

[cogito]

BTW - here's an example of the real deal...

PUNIC SICILY. Machanat. Ca. 320 BC or a few years later. Silver tetradrachm (17.11 gm). Head of Dido right, wearing pleated Phrygian tiara and hoop earring / Lion walking right, palm tree in background, Punic legend sh'mmhnt (people of the camp) below. Jenkins, SNR 56, 272 (O85/R226). Rizzo pl. lxvi, 8 (same dies). Kraay-Hirmer 208 (same dies). Luynes 1472 (same dies). Well-centered and a fine example of this classic rarity. Good very fineThis is one of three special emissions portraying the Carthaginian foundress Dido, arguably the most expressive because its pleated Phrygian cap evokes a murex shell from Dido's native Tyre. Jenkins could not explain the lion reverse type as an adjunct to Dido, and speculated that the obverse type should perhaps be identified as Artemis, the Greek goddess of wild beasts, who may have been equivalent to the Punic Tanit. Jenkins suggested a possible date of issue in 314, in which case the three special emissions may have served as presentation pieces for the elite battalion of two thousand citizens enrolled for Hamilcar's campaign against Agathocles.. Ex Sotheby's, London, 8 July 1996, lot 32.

[AlexB]

Hi Jeff

Looks heavily cleaned and almost idenitical to Sotheby's coin - same dies? Fake - I don't think so but without weight a real risk.

Find out how much he sold it for...

Brgds

Alex

[cogito]

...much more than the $300 it was going for as a top bid with 5 bidders and 7 days left on the auction.

If authentic, it will be interesting to see by whom and where the coin is relisted with a major auction house. Given predatory actions by some lately, I can't say I'll be surprised.

Jeff

[bpmurphy]

Almost certainly a polished cast fake.

Barry Murphy

[cogito]

Score one for the good guys (maybe).

Jeff

[AlexB]

Hi Barry

Do you mean that someone mechanically polished out casting surface marks/edges etc? Makes sense given lack of detail at edges...nice work though. They should have artificially toned it too.

Brgds

Alex

[cogito]

For me, the most suspicious aspects of the eBay coin relative to the Sotheby's original is 1.) the softness of the transition from the fields to Dido's cap and fields to lion's tail; 2.) scratches on both sides all in same direction...maybe in an attempt to hide casting surfaces; 3.) refusal of original seller to reveal coin's weight or even to attempt to get the weight; and 4.) seller feigning ignorance about the coin, yet sets up shop on eBay as a numismatics business?

Jeff

[bpmurphy]

Originally Posted by AlexB

Hi Barry

Do you mean that someone mechanically polished out casting surface marks/edges etc? Makes sense given lack of detail at edges...nice work though. They should have artificially toned it too.

Brgds

Alex

Yes. There are many signs of weakness on this coin as pointed out by Jeff. You can also see traces of the outline of the host coin on the reverse, behind the lion's rump, extending up to the top of the tree.

Barry

[AlexB]

Thanks.

Another example of why I buy from dealers.

Alex

[cogito]

Barry,

I didn't catch that rubbed out casting border, but now that you pointed it out one can clearly see that the Sotheby's coin was used to make this fake! Very interesting!

The Sotheby's coin sold at Gemini, LLC. last year for $21K, so somehow the original purchaser lend the coin out to be cast and then fakes from the Sotheby's template start appearing on the market?? I guess it's possible that the cast is old (i.e., pre-1996 Sotheby's sale) or made during the time intervening between the Sotheby's and Gemini sales, but it's certainly coincidental that the fake would appear one year after the sale of its parent.

Jeff

[curtislclay]

But the Sotheby coin couldn't have provided the top of the palm tree, which is there on the eBay coin.

[cogito]

The top could have been added to the impression before casting, I guess...

Maybe there's another example of the Sotheby's die running around, from which the cast was made? Coinarchives only had the Sotheby's example listed.

Are you thinking that it's authentic, Curtis?

Jeff

[curtislclay]

I think it more likely to be an excellent cast, because of the scratches, because the dealer declines to provide the coin's weight, and because he apparently doesn't know he's got a valuable rarity, as though a US dealer offered an 1804 silver dollar described as "Large US silver coin, eagle reverse, date 1804"!

In the image the coin looks sharp enough to me to be authentic, but that may be deceptive. Obv. seems a later die state than the Sotheby spec., because of additional die breaks on Dido's nose.

[Kiffin Miller]

I'm inexperienced in these things but surely a dead give away is the square testicles!!!
Kiffin