Stolen coin - Ron Saxanoff

[raeticus]

stolen coin is:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/adrian...?idProduct=501

This coin is a from my collection and was sold via a Vcoins dealer in commission. It was bought on Vcoins in late 2010 by a Ron Saxanoff of Pottstown, PA, US, who had chosen uninsured shipment. It was thus sent via registered mail from Germany to the US. No tracking info was available in the US (ie once it left Germany at Frankfurt). Mr Saxanoff pulled back his payment at Paypal saying it never arrived, and then went incommunicado.

If the coin is seen anywhere, please inform me.

If you know Ron Saxanoff, please forward to him my wish to talk to him re this issue.

Thx

[Flavus]

Try Facebook.

[raeticus]

I have no facebook account yet, guess I have to be a member there to see, right ?
Andreas

[Flavus]

Originally Posted by raeticus

I have no facebook account yet, guess I have to be a member there to see, right ?
Andreas

Unfortunately (unfortunately in case you don't want to be a part of the FB) you do. But I think in this case it's worth it. It shouldn't take you that long to set up an account.
And by the way it's terrible what happened to your coin. The only hope is that it is still going through the customs.
Of course sending by DHL or Fedex is the most secure way but these guys are so expensive, even for a regular size letter.
If you send a letter as a registered mail and you have a tracking number I always thought that there must be a way to trace it even overseas.

[raeticus]

I had thought so too. But it took the German mail 3 month to tell me that finally according to their records the shipment went outside of Germany 1 week after I had mailed it (ie is out of their responsibility), and that the US mail could not find it. Registered mail is not worth a penny ! Maybe even worse as it attracts attention
I cannot imagine US customs taking 3 months ?

I now read many such stories actually (I also posted the coin on the yahoo moneta and coin forgery lists.) It must be a major issue !

What annoys me most is that we had offered DHL or Fedex to Mr Saxanoff, and he in writing turned it down requesting the cheaper registered mail, but now leaves me standing in the rain...

[areich]

It is probably genuinely lost, of which the missing tracking information is a sign, the tracking does not stop until it's delivered. But of course, if I choose uninsured shipping I have to bear the consequences. If he's a collector he might think about it, it's a small community and I as a dealer would blacklist him.

[Roma_Orbis]

But, if you have the proof of shipment with registered mail Id, how can the money in Paypal be pulled back? You need to provide a proof of shipment if the item is considered not delivered, or otherwise:
'If you're responding to an "item not received" claim, you'll need to provide Proof of Delivery from a shipping company that meets the following conditions:

• It shows the status as delivered.
• It confirms the date the order was delivered.
• It includes the recipient's address, including a minimum of the city, state, and zip code (or equivalent).
• For payments of $250 USD (or local currency equivalent) or more, it includes proof of the recipient's signature to confirm delivery.'

(https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?c...ion_learn_more)

So the dispute should be in your favour.

Jérôme

[RobertB]

the exact same thing happened to me, but from the buyer's perspective... a coin ordered from Germany; sent via registered mail to US; made it to customs and disappeared. I also filed a claim with PayPal, but was turned down because seller provided proof of mailing.

perhaps the key item is the last item :

"For payments of $250 USD (or local currency equivalent) or more, it includes proof of the recipient's signature to confirm delivery"

My item was less than this amount, so all seller needed to provide was proof of mailing.

"If he's a collector he might think about it, it's a small community and I as a dealer would blacklist him."

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? As is the thread title about "Stolen" coin. I believe in most jurisdictions a buyer is not obligated to pay for an item that he never receives, and the risk is with the seller, by statute. This is why many dealers simply insure everything, build it into the cost of the shipping and don't even offer the customer the option of a less secure method. It is to manage their risk, not the customer's.

I think if a dealer tried to toe that line with their customers, it is the dealer who would quickly become blacklisted, not the customers.

FWIW, if I were Mr Saxonoff, I'd be more than a little ticked off about being publicly accused of stealing a coin in such a public forum as this, since all the evidence (as presented here) is that the coin was simply never received by him.

--Robert

[raeticus]

Robert,

I do not see the buyer accused of that at all by any of the posts here.

The coin was shipped (here again the foto, my primary reason for posting) and there is no trace of it anymore. So the root cause is the mail system not delivering.

I do not know what happened to the coin after I shipped it. Like many others is must be assumed lost in mail.

On a second layer though - and this is what areich refers to - fact is that the buyer ordered the coin knowingly - confirming in writing - at his risk with registered mail, turning down the safer courier shipment, but then pulled back the paypal, and leaving me with the loss. This to me is not living up to a commitment.

I even offered to share the loss 50:50, but there is no more email response after the paypal pullback.

I had posted his name here hoping that someone can help me communicate with him, as there is always the possibility of emails not going through to someone.

[areich]

Originally Posted by RobertB

the exact same thing happened to me, but from the buyer's perspective... a coin ordered from Germany; sent via registered mail to US; made it to customs and disappeared. I also filed a claim with PayPal, but was turned down because seller provided proof of mailing.

perhaps the key item is the last item :

"For payments of $250 USD (or local currency equivalent) or more, it includes proof of the recipient's signature to confirm delivery"

My item was less than this amount, so all seller needed to provide was proof of mailing.

"If he's a collector he might think about it, it's a small community and I as a dealer would blacklist him."

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? As is the thread title about "Stolen" coin. I believe in most jurisdictions a buyer is not obligated to pay for an item that he never receives, and the risk is with the seller, by statute. This is why many dealers simply insure everything, build it into the cost of the shipping and don't even offer the customer the option of a less secure method. It is to manage their risk, not the customer's.

I think if a dealer tried to toe that line with their customers, it is the dealer who would quickly become blacklisted, not the customers.

FWIW, if I were Mr Saxonoff, I'd be more than a little ticked off about being publicly accused of stealing a coin in such a public forum as this, since all the evidence (as presented here) is that the coin was simply never received by him.

--Robert

I don't think it's harsh at all. I have all my coins, except very expensive ones shipped unregistered and understand the difference between registered and registered and insured. If I don't pay for insurance, it is my problem. Claiming my money back from Paypal (and thus from the seller), which I probably could would be dishonest.

[Malcolius]

Just thought I would let you know, there is no Ron Saxanoff on FaceBook.
BR
John

[Malcolius]

P.S.

However, he does get a mention at the following URL which gives a validation to the Pottstown address. I missed this the first time, sorry.

http://www.pottstownmercury.com/arti...mode=fullstory

BR

John.

[Roma_Orbis]

Still, I don't understand how could Paypal pull back your money, if you have a proof of shipment (like registered mail), as a dispute has to be opened in Paypal before any settlement is made in favour of either the buyer or the seller, with proof having to be brought.

Jérôme

[RobertB]

"I do not see the buyer accused of that at all by any of the posts here. "

Well, the title of the thread is "Stolen coin - Ron Saxonoff" that kind of says it all.

Yesterday I bought a software package from Amazon.com for $200, and I selected their "free" shipping option. If I never receive the software because it gets lost in the mail, does anyone seriously think I shouldn't get my money back? I can't imagine Amazon wouldn't either refund my money or send me a new item. And if not, it is automatic that my credit card company would issue a refund to me. So I'm not sure why a coin should be any different.

Shipping insurance is for your benefit, not the buyer. If I buy a coin from someone in Germany and it gets lost in transit, the fact that it was insured in Germany is completely irrelevant to my local post office. Unless there is a much higher degree of cooperation between the US and German postal authorities than I am aware of, how am I to pursue a postal claim for an item shipped in Germany? You as the sender need to file the claim with your local post office -- I don't see how you can push that on to the buyer, regardless of who "paid" for it. Buyer gets a refund, and seller gets reimbursed from the insurance proceeds.

The earlier posts didn't say anything about what was explicitly agreed to or not agreed to re: shipping liability, but you did say it was sold by (or consigned to) a vcoins dealer, and IMO for a dealer to announce that a transaction is "at customer risk" is totally bogus. The only reason ebay can get away with sticking buyers the way they do is the "flea market" mentality -- but the tradeoff is that's why stuff sells for only a fraction of retail.

--Robert

[areich]

Look at Vcoins, sellers offer all kinds of shipping options. Selecting and paying for uninsured shipping means it is not insured, it's as simple as that. He gambled and he lost, except he now takes his money back through Paypal. There's a word for that as well.