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Old Feb 21, 2009, 09:30 PM   #1
Mark
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Working my way back...Camp Gates

Good Evening All,

It has been some time since I posted anything to the Forum (2007) but I have been pop'n in and out over this time period to read the various posts with keen interests.

I am writing tonight to ask a some what simple, yet complicated question. I like camp gates and want to know if there is some logical way to collect such? I know it boils down to personal likes but does one collect by style of camp gate or by reign?????? Does anyone know just how many variations there are and the possibility of completing such a task? Is it easier to collect by reign than variations?

Sorry, I have thrown several questions into one post but hope to get some sort of guidance.

Mark
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Old Feb 22, 2009, 06:08 AM   #2
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It depends on what you consider a campgate to be (city gate, camp gate, watchtower), and whether you want to consider provincials or not.

If you believe "campgates" to be city gates and want to include the provincials, then it's a pretty major task, but if you prefer to limit it to the imperial post-reform types typified by those under Constantine then it's more manageable (except perhaps for the later 4th and 5th century types).

http://citygate.ancients.info/

Ben
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Old Feb 22, 2009, 10:33 AM   #3
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Ben,

Thanks for the reply and for the link. To continue, I have been reviewing and researching the various versions for Constantine as a possible collecting theme.

Regards,

Mark
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Old Feb 22, 2009, 11:24 AM   #4
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Well, as you suggest, there are many different ways you could collect these, even given that much narrower Constantinian focus.

Looking at the big picture of bronze campgate types issued during Constantine's reign we have:

318-319 Constantine issued Virtvs Avgg from Rome mint only (with P-R in fields), with 3-4 turrets, and either no door, open doors or closed doors (only 4 of the implied 2x3=6 combinations exist), and no star above. Lots of interesting bust types, some unlisted. There is currently very strong competition for these - they tend to be expensive.

c. 318-320 Licinius issued Providentiae Avgg [NN]/Caess from Heraclea only with 3 turrets, no doors, and no star above (the early NN type is very scarce, and there's also an unlisted one with SMHT mintmark and the NN legend). The start date for this type is to my mind contentious - I suspect they started at the same time as Constantine's above Rome type, since they both appear to represent a new higher silver content denomination.

324-330 Constantine issued Providentiae Avgg/Caess from most mints, carrying on this Licinian legend/type after Constantine's defeat of Licinius and gain of sole rule. Licinius's 3 turrets now reduced to 2 turrets, still with no doors, but now with a star (which we can take as a Constantinian symbol) above. There are a couple of exceptions:

- Heraclea initially issues a Licinius-Constantine transitional type with 3 turrets and star above, but then quickly gets in line and reduces that to 2 turrets

- Arles resurrects Constantine's earlier Rome-only Virtvs Avgg legend, now adding Virtvs Caess, usually with open doors, with star above, and issues this alongside the regular Providentiae Avgg/Caess type. There are also irregular Arles types you may encounter.

I'd suggest that getting examples of all these major types would be a good initial goal, and you could then see where you want to take it from there. Getting examples of the 324-330 Providentiae type from each mint might be a logical next step, and/or getting examples with the different bust types that changed as time progressed from 324-330.

If you get to the point of collecting these based on numbers of rows of bricks, or actual brick count, then you've gone too far!

Ben

Last edited by Congius : Feb 22, 2009 at 11:29 AM.
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Old Feb 24, 2009, 09:02 AM   #5
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Hi, Mark, welcome back to the fold! Ben gave you a great outline on Camp Gates and now that I have stopped collecting them, enjoy!
Ben is correct on the Rome issues, one collector concentrates on these and it is difficult to acquire these unless you are lucky and snatch the coin before he does.
One interesting item, the mint city of Sirmium only produced these for Constantius II Caesar, scarce and hard to find. I saw a mule once with Constantine for these but it had the appearance of being barbaric.
If you even see one for Constantius II Caesar of London also, grab it, very scarce.
Ben is also correct on Heraclea. Interesting that during cival war between Constantine and Licinius the camp gates initially displayed three towers. When Constantine took over the city (minted for Constantine II and Constantius II only) it briefly showed three towers and a star (his symbol) and then went to two towers and star. Good luck trying to get the former!
You will have a grand collecting experience with these and let us know on your discoveries!
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Old Mar 1, 2009, 04:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus flavius View Post
One interesting item, the mint city of Sirmium only produced these for Constantius II Caesar, scarce and hard to find. I saw a mule once with Constantine for these but it had the appearance of being barbaric.
You mean this one from my collection?



Mule of Constantine I obverse and Constantius II reverse, 324-325, Sirmium
CONSTAN_TINVS AVG
Laureate head right
PROVIDEN_TIAE CAESS
Campgate with six rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks, ramp with stairs at base
RIC VII, --
Ex Carlos Escuer, eBay, 2003

There is still some debate as to whether or not this is a legitimate mule of a Constantine I obverse die, most likely for a SARMATIA DEVICTA reverse, or an ancient imitation of excellent style. The font in the legend hints at an imitation, as does the portrait, but I do not have any other Sirmium mule examples against which to compare at this time. Also, the obverse is slightly double-struck as can be seen by the forehead.

By the way, there are two types of Sirmium gates for Constantius II - with and without ramps. I have examples of both:



Constantius II, 324-325, Sirmium
FL IVL CONSTANTIVS NOB C
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust left
PROVIDEN_TIAE CAESS
Campgate with eight rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks
19mm, 3.24g
RIC VII, 53 (R1)
Ex Petrusic Goran, eBay, December 2006



Constantius II, 324-325, Sirmium
FL IVL CONSTANTIVS NOB C
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust left
PROVIDEN_TIAE CAESS
Campgate with seven rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks, ramp with stairs at base
RIC VII, 53 (R1)
Ex Linde Coins, eBay, August 2003

If you have any campgate questions, just let me know. Although I don't actively hunt them down any more, I still have probably close to 1000 of them in my collection and still buy them on occasion when I see something special. Here is where I've documented waht I have:

http://www.beastcoins.com/Topical/Ar...e/Campgate.htm

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Old Mar 2, 2009, 02:36 PM   #7
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I recently picked up these campgates. Interested in any observations .........

CONSTANTINE II
Caesar
A.D. 317-337

Follis. Rev. PROVIDENTIAE CAESS, Camp gate with two turrets, no doors, star above, SMHA• in exergue, mint of Heraclea. 2.7gm 19mm RIC 83 1st officina r4, right?


CONSTANTINE II
Caesar
A.D. 317-337

Follis. Rev. PROVIDENTIAE CAESS, Camp gate with three turrets, no doors •MHTΔ• in exergue, mint of Heraclea. 2.8gm 20mm RIC 26 var. I think this is possibly unlisted in RIC.

Apologies, I don't have any better images to hand at the moment.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Unlisted campgate1.jpg (68.3 KB, 250 views)
File Type: jpg Unlisted campgate2.jpg (82.2 KB, 250 views)

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Old Mar 3, 2009, 05:25 PM   #8
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First, Thank you Zach for posting those beauties from your web site. Needless to say, I have visited it many times and it is a great aid to collectors like myself. Yes, indeed, that was the Constantinian Sirmium Camp Gate! I have three Constantinius II Camps myself but none with the border base, perhaps one day....
Oh, Should mention to Mark another key coin is a Constantinople Crispus Camp, rare because he was executed at the time was just put into operation. Took me some years to acquire that one.
The Eastern mints are wonderful because of the complex varieties that can come to surface, such as Leetone posted, not only on the reverse but the head dress shown for the Emperor. Heraclea and Cyzicus mints display a wide arry of diadem varieties that catch the eye in their decoration, but also the size of the bust itself! That is another way to collect.
As far a rarity noted by the RIC, be on quard because it may be outdated. Since that work was published a vast number of finds have made there way to the market.
Hard to measure how rare a particular example is today.
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Old Mar 3, 2009, 08:15 PM   #9
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Since we are sharing a few examples, I recently picked up these 2.
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Old Mar 4, 2009, 07:50 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcus flavius View Post
Oh, Should mention to Mark another key coin is a Constantinople Crispus Camp, rare because he was executed at the time was just put into operation. Took me some years to acquire that one.
Hee hee... Yes - took me a few years too, but when I did get one it was a doozy!

Ben
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File Type: jpg Crispus CAES RIC VII Constantinople 8 R4 19x18mm.jpg (69.5 KB, 202 views)
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Old Mar 4, 2009, 11:45 AM   #11
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Ben, truely a stellar specie, well struck, beautiful classical style portrait of Crispus. You are a very fortunate collector to have acquired it. If it ever needs a new home.... heh, heh, just send me a note.
Thanks for sharing it, I have a copy of the picture for now.
There is also an officina "B" (second), which I am still looking for, ugh....
Oh, Fausta is also scarce from Constantinople, but much more easily acquired because apparently Constantine took some time to condemn her to death also.
Cheers!
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Old Mar 7, 2009, 02:31 AM   #12
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Haven't seen an example of an Arles Campgate in the thread yet so thought I'd share a beautiful example of a Crispus open door varient I purchased last year from Tory Failmezger's collection.
By the way I noted that Mike Vosper has an excellent example of the elusive Constantius II London Campgate in his store at the moment.....
Cheers,
Steve
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Old Mar 7, 2009, 09:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by steveb8536 View Post
.......... By the way I noted that Mike Vosper has an excellent example of the elusive Constantius II London Campgate in his store at the moment.....
Cheers,
Steve
Thank you for the "heads up" Steve -- that is a very nice specimen of this rarity.

James
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Old Mar 7, 2009, 04:57 PM   #14
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Thank you for the "heads up" Steve -- that is a very nice specimen of this rarity.

James
Well, a very nice collector beat me to this coin -- the best example I have seen of RIC Vol. VII (London), Constantius II, No. 297 -- I won't divulge her name publicly, but I am glad it has found a good home (although I am a little envious!)

James
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Old Mar 7, 2009, 08:45 PM   #15
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I'm so terribly far behind from being out of the office all last week, so hopefully I will be catching up a lot more next week. Just got my column off to Kerry for the next issue of the Celator.

Anyway, the London mint campgates are very interesting and need a thorough analysis. Barry did work on them many years ago (when he was still with CNG I think) and observed pellets all over the place on them. Here is my example of RIC 297 will a pellet at the bottom of the doorway:



Constantius II, AE3, 324-325, London, Officina 1
FLA CONSTANTIVS NOB C
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right
PROVIDENT_IAE CAESS
Campgate with six rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks
Pellet in doorway at base
PLON in exergue
RIC VII, 297 variant (R2)
Ex Keith Metzer Collection, October 2003

And a 296 with the same attribute:



Constantine II, AE3, 324-325, London, Officina 1
CONSTANTINVS IVN NOB C
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right, seen from behind
PROVIDENT_IAE CAESS
Campgate with six rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks
Pellet in block above doorway and another in doorway at base
PLON in exergue
RIC VII, 296 variant (C3)
Ex Keith Metzer Collection, October 2003

and a 296 without the base pellet:



Constantine II, AE3, 324-325, London
CONSTANTINVS IVN NOB C
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right, seen from behind
PROVIDEN_TIAE CAESS
Campgate with six rows, two turrets, no doors, star above, top and bottom rows empty blocks, pellet above door in row three
PLON in exergue
20mm x 21mm, 3.64g
RIC VII, 296 (C3)
Ex Claude Peltier, eBay, December 2005

And then there is this corroded wreck with a pellet instead of a star:



Crispus, AE3, 324-325, London
FL IVL CRISPVS NOB CAES
Laureate, draped, cuirassed bust right
PROVIDEN_TIAE CAESS
Campgate with six rows, two turrets, no doors, pellet above, top and bottom rows empty blocks, pellet in door at base
PLON in exergue
RIC VII, --

Note: RIC does attest any examples with a pellet above the campgate instead of a star

As I catch up more, I'll come back and look over the thread ago to see if there are any loose ends that still need discussions or if any new info comes along to discuss.

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