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Old Mar 3, 2010, 08:11 PM   #1
marcus flavius
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Talk about a bidding WAR!

This coin was featured on Ebay and i myself put a bid in for it. Now, granted it is rather a rare issue of Constantine from the Lyons (lugdunum) mint and is rated scarce in RIC.
I, myself, have never seen one on the market... ever. So, I thought there would be a vigorous fight at the bell, but never expected the hammer price of over $1,000 dollars.
I felt in todays market between $200-300 would have been reeasonable and the max. maybe $500.
Shows how popular Constantine seriesd has become and there are deep pockets out there for seldom seen types. Happy hunting!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEDWX:IT
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 02:34 AM   #2
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That's interesting! Though I've never been a specialist of Late Roman coinage, I've never seen this type yet. But fetching such a price in eBay is quite surprising; I've always tended to think that real good ex never fetch the true market price (auction or high end dealers) on eBay. But this is fragile, see bidders list:

u***b( 637) US $1,185.00 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
0***i( 6 ) US $1,160.00 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
l***c( 787) US $320.00 Mar-03-10 15:39:18 PST
6***5( 139) US $254.00 Mar-03-10 14:42:17 PST


without 0***i( 6 ), the winning bidder would have got the ex at $325!

Jérôme

Last edited by Roma_Orbis : Mar 4, 2010 at 02:39 AM.
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 05:53 AM   #3
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Haven't you misread the bidder list? u***b and i***b are different bidders, so without o***i, the coin still would have cost $800. Less, but still very strong.

Phil Davis

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Originally Posted by Roma_Orbis View Post
That's interesting! Though I've never been a specialist of Late Roman coinage, I've never seen this type yet. But fetching such a price in eBay is quite surprising; I've always tended to think that real good ex never fetch the true market price (auction or high end dealers) on eBay. But this is fragile, see bidders list:

u***b( 637) US $1,185.00 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
0***i( 6 ) US $1,160.00 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
i***b( 852) US $775.15 Mar-03-10 19:11:55 PST
l***c( 787) US $320.00 Mar-03-10 15:39:18 PST
6***5( 139) US $254.00 Mar-03-10 14:42:17 PST
without 0***i( 6 ), the winning bidder would have got the ex at $325!
Jérôme
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 07:02 AM   #4
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WOW! What a wonderful coin! I've never seen an example of this type for sale. I'm not the least bit surprised by the results and would be even less surprised to find out the highest bidders end up being dealers who know how (market) rare something like this is.

Thanks for sharing! I've saved copies of the images.

--Beast
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 07:26 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volodya View Post
Haven't you misread the bidder list? u***b and i***b are different bidders, so without o***i, the coin still would have cost $800. Less, but still very strong.

Phil Davis
Oops yes, my eyes just focused on '***b'. So there were 3 strong bidders ($775 / $1160 / above).

Zach, what is the rarity of this type? Would it be justified for a dealer to pay this price, meaning that with his markup, I imagine he would have to sell at $1500 at least?

Jérôme

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Old Mar 4, 2010, 07:38 AM   #6
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Bastien cites 14 examples matching this coin from this issue and a further 5 examples in the next issue with the CI | H/S marks.
Regards,
Martin
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 10:16 AM   #7
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Ego war?

When I see an extraordinary result such as this, I wonder about the cause. I have not any idea what the cause was in this case, but I have seen other auctions where coins went far beyond expected prices because two or three collectors got into an ego-based war with one another. In other cases, I have seen crooked parties put up a coin and bid it very high so that they could later sell other examples at "bargain" prices that might actually be two or three times the real value. I do not suggest that happened here! Heaven forfend! This coin may just reflect the reality of price in the new market for a an excellent specimen. But, still, I cannot help but wonder why?
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 01:20 PM   #8
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another example

Dear Fellow collectors,

I am very happy to read your discussion, since I was very surprise (and may be a little bit jealous) that this coin reach this value; but your interesting comments show that I am not alone !

I have only one specimen of Bastien 502, bought from a french dealer (Monnaies d'antan, Laurent Fabre) in 2003 for 150 euros; of course, the quality is not as good as the specimen of Lucernae, but it has a nice green patina and I believe that 150 euros was a fair price. moreover, this coin is probably from the treasure of Lignières ; BTW, I do not have the book "Trésors Monétaires du Cher : Lignières (294-310), Osméry (294-313), BASTIEN Pierre, COTHENET André) ; if someone has it and can confirm, I would really appreciate.

Vcoin store is also a very good source of rare coins from the Lugdunum mint; last week, I bought this undescribed (not in Bastien, not in RIC ?) follis of Diocletian (11,57 gr) at a very fair price from "Numisantique" . I guess that we could give it the number Bastien 43α.

All the best,

Roland
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 01:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roma_Orbis View Post
Zach, what is the rarity of this type? Would it be justified for a dealer to pay this price, meaning that with his markup, I imagine he would have to sell at $1500 at least?

Jérôme
Jérôme,

Market rarity is extremely rare. I've been specializing in Tetrarchic and LRB for 10 years and have never seen one for sale. Not that I've looked for one, but I've never run across it for sale or auction.

So, when something this "market rare" becomes available, there should be some decent numbers if people are paying attention. Also, a coin like this, if bought by a dealer, would be going directly to a client's collection and would never be seen for sale otherwise. I can tell you for a fact with an example - a friend of mine, who owns probably the largest ancient coin house in the US, privately told me when asking if he had ancient bear coins in inventory that I would never be able to buy one from him as ever bear he gets goes directly to a deep-pocket client in California. Same sort of thing happens with ultra-rare Constantine coins. There are fanatical Constantine collectors in the world (and some are good friends, I'm happy to say )

--Beast
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 01:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmacdo View Post
When I see an extraordinary result such as this, I wonder about the cause. I have not any idea what the cause was in this case, but I have seen other auctions where coins went far beyond expected prices because two or three collectors got into an ego-based war with one another. In other cases, I have seen crooked parties put up a coin and bid it very high so that they could later sell other examples at "bargain" prices that might actually be two or three times the real value. I do not suggest that happened here! Heaven forfend! This coin may just reflect the reality of price in the new market for a an excellent specimen. But, still, I cannot help but wonder why?
Mac,

And, well, yes, that can also happen. I should think that since the advent of hidden IDs, it isn't so much, since you don't know if you are directly competing against your nemeses on any given coin. It's also a reason I never bid on eBay - if I see a coin I would like, I enter an eSnipe for my max bid and leave it at that. Sometimes I get a good deal, sometimes I pay full-price and sometimes my bid is never executed because it's too low. But, I never pay more than I wanted since I don't get in a bidder war.

As far as shilling, yes, that can happen too, but I would be surprised if it would happen with a coin of this rarity.

--Beast
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Old Mar 4, 2010, 05:56 PM   #11
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Le Trésor de Lignières

rol69,
Your coin is indeed ex Trésor de Lignières: #335, listed on p.74 (weight 5.91 gm, axis 6h) and pictured on Plate VIII. Congratulations!

Last edited by bhupchurch : Mar 5, 2010 at 03:00 AM. Reason: added weight and axis info
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Old Mar 6, 2010, 03:41 PM   #12
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Auction story

Back in the last Ice Age when I was a teenager I went to my first numismatic auction. Part of it was a notable collection of early large cents from a well-known collector who had recently passed away. Two elderly collectors, both in their mid-70s, were at the sale, and both had long lusted after two particular large cents. It later became known that they had made a secret deal, that one would not bid on the first of the desired coins if the other would not bid on the second. The first lot came up, the first fellow bought it and the second did not bid, according to the agreement, but when the second coin came up, the fellow who had agreed not to bid broke the agreement and started bidding hot and heavy. The double-crossed collector grabbed his cane and beat the traitor to the floor. He was hauled away in handcuffs while the other fellow was carried off in an ambulance.

That day I resolved never to get too much emotionally involved in an auction.
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Old Mar 6, 2010, 04:04 PM   #13
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Great story. I have had such agreements myself amongst a few, select, friends! Note to self: watch out for friends that are armed.

Alex
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