ancient worn rarities v. pristine, exquisite beauty

[Lycaonian]

I must ask what is for me a continually haunting question. Is it just me, or can the rather worn true rarity that fits into your collecting theme be just as compelling as the lovely, nearly perfectly preserved designs of a master Greek celator. I have read in some numismatic literature what seemed to be rather deprecating opinions about the wisdom of purchasing the fascinating worn rarity but surely there are others that view these as the true treasures that they can be. Yes, I do understand that the motive for collecting for "investment" v. pleasure factors into this greatly, but historical rarities are to some degree inherently compelling to more than a few on this board, I would guess? If you don't mind, I would value hearing from both dealers and average collectors, if possible, on this one....I recognize that this question calls forth quite a bit of subjectivity, but in asking this question I am inviting that. I would even enjoy seeing the images of some of your rare worn treasures and a comment or two on how you "landed it.". Thanks in advance!

Dave

[cogito]

Generally, I have found that the worn rarities do well in sales/auctions if they are part of a large and well-known regional or thematic collection. Otherwise, sadly the worn rare coins do not do as well as the minty scarce issues.

Utlimately it all comes down to demand. Currently, there is greater general demand for minty than rare. I suspect some of this demand is driven by those who care less about the historical aspect and more about the investiment return. If the slabbing/numerical grading tyranny ever takes hold with ancients, I'm afraid that this imbalance for condition over rarity will solidify further.

J

[paul1888]

This is a very interesting point of discussion and one in which there are as many opinions as collectors. I personally have coins of various conditions (as can be seen in photo gallery), but would prefer to buy ones of the highest condition. My desire to purchase in the highest condition is limited by my budget and availability and probably stems from the fact that originally I started out as a collector of US coins and with US coins condition is all that matters.

I should add that just because a coin is in a high state of condition does not mean that I want it. There has to be an artistic quality to the coin, although subjective, may exclude the condition of the coin. That said, I have and will continue to buy coins of lower grades if I feel it fits into my collection, especially if it is rare or beutiful example.

It is very interesting to observe that it is the coins of the highest state of preservation that sell the fastest. I have a few coins on consignment, one of which is quite scarce, but are very slow to sell since they are not of the highest quality.

I personally hope that slabbing of ancients does not become very popular since I worry it will invite those who collect not for pleasure and respect of these coins but only for profit, such as proliferates the US coin market.

[dlyumkis]

Originally Posted by cogito

I suspect some of this demand is driven by those who care less about the historical aspect and more about the investiment return.
J

I don't necessarily think that this is the case. Personally, a large portion of my collection consists of pieces that I value for their artistic beauty. I have acquired pieces from a number of different time periods and cultures, and, in general, the number one priority for me buying coins is their beauty (again, subjectively speaking, as "beauty" can mean different things for different people). I very much appreciate the extreme rarity of many coins, but what stops me from buying them for very high prices is the fact that their associated historical aspect is something that I can read about once, twice, three times, ..., but not 50 times. Whereas on the other hand, I have looked at the coins in my personal collection well over a hundred times.

That said, I completely agree with the fact that just because a coin is in good condition does not in any way mean that I would want it in my collection. It has to be "beautiful" to me, subjectively. And I could not agree more with the general disappointment that slabbing may come in to the ancient coin market, as I think that this is something that completely takes away from the pleasure of holding the pieces in your hands.

Dmitry

[jamesicus]

Historical association and rarity are of great importance to me. Well centerdness and the accompanying completeness of inscriptions plus the quality of the inscriptional letterforms are more important to me than portraiture and reverse depictions.

James

[esnible]

I really like worn coins. I also like having coins in every condition. A collection where every coin was VG would be awful.

I am a big fan of great rarities in low grades, especially if the low-grade specimen is unique or the finest known.

[Lycaonian]

Originally Posted by jamesicus

Historical association and rarity are of great importance to me. Well centerdness and the accompanying completeness of inscriptions plus the quality of the inscriptional letterforms are more important to me than portraiture and reverse depictions.

James

James, I think this approximates my sentiments. I have taught history for a number of years and love the historical associations as well. Some years ago I bumped into a coin dealer on ebay who really disparaged highest quality pieces because--if I understoof him correctly--they were in many cases hoarded away, virtually disconnected from the hands of those who made human history. In fact I recall him saying that he'd prefer enjoying photos of such high grade coins to owning them. Even now I am wondering if this was simply "sour grapes" due to the economic unfeasibility of owning such masterpieces, but having ample communication with him in those days, I think it was his genuine sentiment.
I don't share his view entirely--I own a couple nicer pieces that are not overly pricey because as someone has already pointed out, their beauty is something you can enjoy a hundred times. But for me the same is true of a wonderful historically significant (to the collector and his purposes), rarer piece that bears the beautiful badge of some wear (not a blank planchet, mind you) from actually having been handled by the soldiers, the villagers, etc. who lived out that chapter of history. While I would not want a collection of VG's--it strikes me that collecting only on the basis of high grade/high demand alone can become rather single-dimensional or, in worst cases, a bit crass. Just a thought.

Dave

[jamesicus]

Originally Posted by Lycaonian

James, I think this approximates my sentiments .......... But for me the same is true of a wonderful historically significant (to the collector and his purposes), rarer piece that bears the beautiful badge of some wear (not a blank planchet, mind you) from actually having been handled by the soldiers, the villagers, etc. who lived out that chapter of history ...........

That is well stated, Dave. And for me it also extends to my collection of antique (flintlock period) arms and accoutrements.

James

[cogito]

Dave's reasoning is one of the reasons why I enjoy the fractional currency and AEs, as these were more than likely circulated among the populace. Often, this is also why the smaller issues are more rare than their tetradrachm and stater counterparts.

J

[vozmozhno]

Originally Posted by esnible

I really like worn coins. I also like having coins in every condition. A collection where every coin was VG would be awful.

Don't worry Ed. If that ever happens to you I'd be more than happy to take a sledge hammer to some of your VGs so you can have "coins in every condition."

[paul1888]

After writing my last reply and reading the replies given for this thread I have been thinking about why I buy the coins that I do. I may not be uniquie in these reasons, but it is for at least three reasons:
1. Beauty - if I find a coin appealing as a small piece of art, I will be more likely to buy it, For example I purchased the Diva Faustina and Macedon Acanthus because I thought that they were both beautiful coins. Generally coins that fit this catagory are of a higher grade, but not always. Diva Faustina Senior front Ceres Back x.jpg

Attachment 2773
2. I buy coins that fit into a couple of areas that I am trying to specialize, they have animals, or were produced during Philip I (The Arab). Condition is a concern, but I will purchase lower grades for rare pieces, including the following:
[ATTACH]Philip I front cippus back p.jpg[/ATTACH]

3. I sometime buy coins because they have an interesting provinance, for example I purchased several coins because they came from the Boston Museum of Fine Arts as well as a single coin that that was from the William Boyd collection.

Some coins fit into one categary of more then one categories.
paul

[Lycaonian]

Thanks for these thoughts! Even now I am pondering over a nifty worn AE from Asia Minor. I hesitate for a moment because of what some have said about the unlikelihood of ever recouping the cost should I sell in the future. But then I considered that this little worn bronze, according to one time-tested reference, is one of only a few discovered Roman provincials covering 2 centuries of mintng from this once great municipality. Under Rome, minting tapered off radically with the city's fall from international prestige, and of the tiny circulation, only a very few ever surface. The real kicker for me is that I have a very narrow collecting focus, chronologically, and this example is by far closer (likely the closest I may see anytime soon) to the era that I have targeted. I already own two somewhat more elegant pieces from this city, but neither will match the unique attraction of this worn yet significantly detailed provincial within a historical stone's throw of the events and people that have so grasped my interest. I reviewed what you said in this thread before making my decision on this one.

Any further thoughts?

Dave

[areich]

Dave, you must also consider that for Asia minor provincials, this coin that I haven't seen
from a city I don't recognize may be as good as it gets.
I think that it is true, from a standpoin of potentially recouping your costs it may not be a good choice but so is the whole field.
These coins may become incredibly popular,
later, who knows? I hope not though.

Andreas