Two Honorius Solidi Fakes on eBay

[BeastCoins]

I get home from Easter dinner at my mom's and decided to look at eBay for the first time in a month just to waste a couple of minutes before heading to bed. In under a minute (no kidding) I run across two examples of the same Honorius solidus fake.

One by ancientart-jerusalem of Israel:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330282063374

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Honorius-Solidus-Concordia-AncientArt-Jerusalem.jpg

and another by saxbys-coins in the UK:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220392088857

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Honorius-Solidus-Concordia-Saxbys-Coins.jpg

I mean, come on. Is the supply of fake coins so bad right now that people have to start offering the same ones at the same time? It's like sellers aren't even trying any more.

I KNEW I shouldn't have looked at eBay just to wind down before bedtime. I run across way too many fakes that get me all fired up. Meh.

:mad:

--Beast

[hydatius]

Zach,

It's not unusual for different specimens of this example to pop up at the same time on eBay (I have photos of 14 specimens from the last few years). It's one of a 'set' of fakes that are always doing the rounds. Most were published in BoC 21 (1996/1997), p. 29, though this one is of a more recent vintage. Note the impossible combination of a Western obverse and an Eastern reverse. Go to Forum's fake reports and search for 'Honorius mismatch' and you'll see most of the ones that appeared until about August 2007 when I stopped bothering to post them. Saxby's photo is quite nice and so I posted that one too. He's selling another one of the set, a solidus of Valentinian II. He's been notified, but nothing's happened yet.

Richard

Added PS:

Hey, Zach!

Check this out. This is one of my photos from 24 October of last year! Look familiar?

[BeastCoins]

Zach,

He's selling another one of the set, a solidus of Valentinian II. He's been notified, but nothing's happened yet.

Token, yes - coin, no. And was not issued "under license from the U.S. Mint". That's just a flat out lie. Official US territorial and fractional gold has a denomination on it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360145705144

Fake "Byzantine.Tiberius II. Av Gold Solidus Coin.580 A.D-EF"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360145665024

Fake "346 A.D Valentinian Roman Av Gold Solidus Coin.EF grade" - the one Richard mentioned above.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220393281586

Fake "610 B.C Byzantine.Heraclius Av Gold Solidus Coin.VF "
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220394913522

I didn't bother looking at any of the silver or bronze auctions since 100% of the ancient gold by Saxby's Coins were all fakes (and bad ones).

Hey, Zach!

Check this out. This is one of my photos from 24 October of last year! Look familiar?

Oh for Pete's sake. Fraudsters are getting so lazy they aren't even reshooting their fake crap? I mean, seriously. Put some effort into ripping people off. If you are going to make money stealing from others, at least give them a little entertainment value! Sheesh!

--Beast

[hydatius]

Oh for Pete's sake. Fraudsters are getting so lazy they aren't even reshooting their fake crap? I mean, seriously. Put some effort into ripping people off. If you are going to make money stealing from others, at least give them a little entertainment value! Sheesh!

--Beast

What, are you not entertained? (What movie is that a quote from?) :D

Richard

[dlyumkis]

What, are you not entertained? (What movie is that a quote from?) :D

Richard

It's Gladiator, Richard :D ... one of my favorite movies (I'm putting aside the historical inaccuracy, since as far as I'm concerned, it was not meant to recreate history, but rather tell a fictional story within a historical setting).

And I have to disagree with you, Zach, on the dealers putting in a little extra effort into ripping people off. Since none of us are keen on getting ripped off by buying fake coins, I think it'd be better if they maintain the poor quality of fake crap out there, so that it's easier to at least spot the coins, if you can't take the seller out.

Dmitry

[BeastCoins]

Dmitry,

I was joking. Besides, all of the fakes I pointed out in this thread are so bad no one should be fooled by them for a second. If one of these sellers went out of their way to dress up any of the coins with wear or marks to make them look older, then they would just have bad looking fakes with distracting marks (like the scratched up one by the seller in Jerusalem).

--Beast

[Georgios]

I guess that if the counterfeiters are putting no to little effort into making them look more 'genuine,' then I guess they are happy with the market. Im sure that if they were not making any money, the fakes would be looking a lot better.

[BeastCoins]

I guess that if the counterfeiters are putting no to little effort into making them look more 'genuine,' then I guess they are happy with the market. Im sure that if they were not making any money, the fakes would be looking a lot better.

How's this Georgios for "looking a lot better"...

O.k. folks - I was irritated when I started this thread because of how quickly I ran across two fakes on eBay. However, I'm also EXTREMELY glad I did start it. Why? Because the reverse die stuck in my head. Why did it stick in my head? Because it looked very familiar. Why is that? Because I just bought this coin last month from a very reputable German firm and put it in my store last weekend:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Z7358LG.jpg

Theodosius II, AV Solidus, c.403-408, Constantinople, Officina 10
D N THEODO_SIVS P F AVG
Pearl-diademed, helmeted, cuirassed bust facing, shield with horse and rider design in left hand, spear in right hand over right shoulder
CONCORDI_A AVGG I
Constantinopolis enthroned facing, helmeted head right, scepter in right hand, Victory on globe in left hand, right foot on prow
* in left field
CONOB in exergue
19mm x 21mm, 4.41g
RIC X, 31 (Arcadius)
Grade: Very attractive aEF

Look familiar? It should - compare the reverse die to the first two coins from eBay. Nearly identical, except mine isn't as flat, has a nice struck look and attractive surfaces. Now, look at this entry on Forgery Network:

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=nU5N0UOdEkM=

My one consolation is that I did buy this from a well-known numismatic firm, so I will get my money back and the other consolation is that the IBSCC described this as "Slightly matt 'satin' finish: a dangerous counterfeit". I take solice in the fact that I was able to catch this dangerous fake within a week before it sold to anyone. Still, I'm really angry this got by me in the first place. Diligence people - always be diligent in your purchases.

Sadly,

--Beast

[dlyumkis]

Dmitry,

I was joking. Besides, all of the fakes I pointed out in this thread are so bad no one should be fooled by them for a second. If one of these sellers went out of their way to dress up any of the coins with wear or marks to make them look older, then they would just have bad looking fakes with distracting marks (like the scratched up one by the seller in Jerusalem).

--Beast

Man ... I must have really gotten up on the wrong side of the bed not to realize that you were joking :confused: ... but seriously, I would highly prefer that all fakes were like the Honorius (not the Theodosius II)

Dmitry

[BeastCoins]

Man ... I must have really gotten up on the wrong side of the bed not to realize that you were joking :confused: ... but seriously, I would highly prefer that all fakes were like the Honorius (not the Theodosius II)

Dmitry

Dmitry,

"Joking" really wasn't the correct word. I was being sarcastic. I should have used this: :rolleyes: . Would have made my posts more obvious?

Anyway, I agree. I would rather have the easy to spot fakes than the dangerous ones like the Theodosius. I'm really upset with myself I didn't immediately catch it, but at least I got it quickly enough so that it's on the way back to the dealer for a refund.

Since we are talking about fakes, I just helped a friend this morning with a coin he offered me. Not fake, but along the same lines. Here is the really nice and interesting coin he offered me:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Augustus-Quinarius-AureusLG.jpg

too bad this is what it actually looked like when CNG sold it:

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/077/image00859.jpg
Image courtesy Classical Numismatic Group, Triton XI, Lot 859, January 2008

Augustus. 27 BC-AD 14. AV Quinarius (3.90 g, 7h). Lugdunum (Lyon) mint. Struck AD 7. AVGVSTVS DIVI F, laureate head right / [T]R POT XXX, Victory, draped, seated right on globe, holding wreath in both hands . RIC I 217; Lyon 80; Bahrfelt 229; BMCRE 505; BN 1679-80. Good VF, twice holed, minor marks in fields and on edge.

Here is what my friend had to say about it when I just told him:

"thank you for the notice as we bought the coin from a reputable (?) dealer we did not make detailed research about it, but there is no doubt: it's the same coin. The marks in the fields look compatible with ground marks and nothing can let us guess it is such unbelievable restoration work. We can assure that also at the 20X loupe there is no evidence of soldering or changes in metal where the holes were - even if now we know were we should see them.... the craftsman who made this should be very skill in his art."

Again - ALWAYS keep diligent folks when you are buying coins. Be sure you can get your money back if need be.

--Beast

[AnemicOak]

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Z7358LG.jpg


Look familiar? It should - compare the reverse die to the first two coins from eBay. Nearly identical, except mine isn't as flat, has a nice struck look and attractive surfaces. Now, look at this entry on Forgery Network:

http://forgerynetwork.com/asset.aspx?id=nU5N0UOdEkM=

My one consolation is that I did buy this from a well-known numismatic firm, so I will get my money back and the other consolation is that the IBSCC described this as "Slightly matt 'satin' finish: a dangerous counterfeit". I take solice in the fact that I was able to catch this dangerous fake within a week before it sold to anyone. Still, I'm really angry this got by me in the first place. Diligence people - always be diligent in your purchases.

Sadly,

--Beast


That's a pretty scary fake. I'm a novice, but I bet that one could fool some fairly good 'experts' out there.

Glad you won't get 'stuck' with it.

[BeastCoins]

Brian,

Considering how much Roman gold I study and sell, and it got by me for a couple of days, I would say yes, it's a damn scary fake and would easily pass for good even as a stand alone coin. And considering I bought it from a high-end and well-known German auction house and numismatic firm who also did not catch it, it could have easily gone to one of my clients, who I would have then had to contact to recall it.

Not happy. :mad: :mad: :mad:

--Beast

[GMoneti]

That looks like a great restoration job indeed. I guess the properties of gold is what make this possible. Are there any examples of silver coin modification along these lines? It would seem harder to do, especially if there is toning involved, but few things are impossible in this "business".

[4to2centophilia]

That looks like a great restoration job indeed. I guess the properties of gold is what make this possible. Are there any examples of silver coin modification along these lines? It would seem harder to do, especially if there is toning involved, but few things are impossible in this "business".

There was a thread on Forum 2 years ago about a coin Jeff (cogito) recognized as a plate coin which someone artfully repaired. They did major work on a die defect that made for a horrible nose on the portrait. The coin was silver and the repair work was undetectable if not for the pre-repaired picture.

HJB was selling the coin and returned it to the the original seller (whom they bought it from at the Chicago coin fair).

I guess anything is possible in the hands of a talented person.

BR

Mark

[hydatius]

I have three photos of the fake Beast posted (though I have only posted one of them at Forum, I notice, with a note about the proper obverse and reverse finally being linked; attached below).

I hate hate to differ with other members of the discussion, but it's not that hard to see from style alone that this one is a dud.

Richard

[BeastCoins]

I have three photos of the fake Beast posted (though I have only posted one of them at Forum, I notice, with a note about the proper obverse and reverse finally being linked; attached below).

I hate hate to differ with other members of the discussion, but it's not that hard to see from style alone that this one is a dud.

Richard

Thanks Richard. I PM'ed you asking for your input as you and Marc Poncin are the most in-depth late Roman gold guys I know. Glad you had other examples of the Theodosius variety and I should have immediately known it was bad when I saw it. That's why the reverse die image stuck in my head - something didn't seem right. Glad you were around to confirm with more examples from the "wild". I'm humbled by your diligence and vast expertise :)

--Beast

[4to2centophilia]

Zach

Don't be too hard on yourself.

I just learned that my Lysimichos was also a victim of some extreme altering. I am beside myself with embarrassment.

I have included the before and after pictures.

Who knew you could do this to a coin?

[GMoneti]

There was a thread on Forum 2 years ago about a coin Jeff (cogito) recognized as a plate coin which someone artfully repaired. They did major work on a die defect that made for a horrible nose on the portrait. The coin was silver and the repair work was undetectable if not for the pre-repaired picture.

HJB was selling the coin and returned it to the the original seller (whom they bought it from at the Chicago coin fair).

I guess anything is possible in the hands of a talented person.

BR

Mark


Well, let's hope that we don't get coins that have had plastic surgery. I guess in many instances, unless it's stated or someone investigates there is no way to know if a coin has been fixed. Btw, do you remember this one:

http://www.geminiauction.com/details.asp?LotNumber=690

It looked pretty much flawless in person. In that case it was noted that it was repaired, and the price reflected it. Who knows if that will be the case with this coin many years from now though.

[Congius]

That looks like a great restoration job indeed. I guess the properties of gold is what make this possible. Are there any examples of silver coin modification along these lines? It would seem harder to do, especially if there is toning involved, but few things are impossible in this "business".

How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=195960&AucID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlanjberk/store/viewitem.asp?idProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben

[4to2centophilia]

How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=195960&AucID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlanjberk/store/viewitem.asp?idProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben

And it goes from gVF to Near Mint.

I am wondering if maybe these coins are merely being kept Near a Mint.

[GMoneti]

How's this for a silver repair?

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=195960&AucID=255&Lot=202

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/harlanjberk/store/viewitem.asp?idProduct=14378

Evidently the coin fairies that do this kind of work don't come cheap!

Ben


No kidding. :eek: In any case, that would be some serious return on investment, no matter what the coin fairies charge. Even in the NAC auction listing with the scratch it says "Scratch on cheekbone and restauration on cheek, otherwise good very fine". This coin has been through a lot.



And it goes from gVF to Near Mint.

I am wondering if maybe these coins are merely being kept Near a Mint.

:D

[gibfrog]

I have three photos of the fake Beast posted (though I have only posted one of them at Forum, I notice, with a note about the proper obverse and reverse finally being linked; attached below).

I hate hate to differ with other members of the discussion, but it's not that hard to see from style alone that this one is a dud.

Richard

I agree with Richard. Look at this one from Freeman & Sear
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=159533&AucID=194&Lot=778

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/freemansear/mbs13/image00778.jpg

and this one from Rauch
http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer.php?LotID=160494&AucID=196&Lot=2549

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/hdrauch/079/02549q00.jpg

[areich]

No kidding. :eek: In any case, that would be some serious return on investment, no matter what the coin fairies charge. Even in the NAC auction listing with the scratch it says "Scratch on cheekbone and restauration on cheek, otherwise good very fine". This coin has been through a lot.





:D

A seller that thinks of themselves as reputable should refuse to deal in coins like these or AT LEAST provide the before picture, even if they didn't do the work themselves. After all, it's not hard to find. It's still an ancient coin and I don't expect it to be thrown away but that's not full disclosure. The fact that after the coin was vandalized the price increased by 500% shows what a shady business this can be.

Here's another example of a repaired gold coin:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=52767.0

[hydatius]

I never would have thought to look for these on CoinArchives! Thanks, Cliff. Notice that there are two versions of this fake: a clearly fake version with beading around the outside of the obverse, and a more 'authentic' looking one without the beading. The obverses are otherwise identical. The original BoC version lacks the beading.

Richard

[BeastCoins]

I agree with Richard.

O.k., if Richard and Cliff think these are such obvious fakes, that certainly says something about all of us dealers and collectors who have bought these as authentic. At least I figured mine out and fessed up within a week of having mine since I too thought it looked a bit odd. But still, no one else started a thread here about these high-grade fakes until now, even though they are so "obvious"? Richard mentioned he did post something on Forvm two years ago, and I believe him since he is a hard-core student of late Roman gold and I respect his opinion on the topic far more than the decent amount of work I've done on the subject. Still, this one got by me for a week and apparently also got by Freeman and Sear and Rauch at auction, plus who knows how many direct sales of just regular dealer inventory. I still think for most dealers this is a dangerous fake and especially so since most dealers will never see this discussion.

--Beast

[hydatius]

I'm not trying to claim clairvoyance or anything. The obverse isn't bad, mainly because there can be so much variation in the early issues of Theodosius, but the reverse for me is stylistically hopeless. I have a specimen of the Julian from this set (see below) and it is clearly fake in hand, though not so from a photo (I suspect it is a cast), and specimens were sold by Freeman and Sear in 2006 and Stack's in 2008 (the latter for $2,500!) (though the Stack's specimen has had the hair newly retooled (on the mould/die) in wild, clearly fake way: see below with comparison of normal type; note the further excessive retooling of the cloak and fibula). I just don't think people are paying attention to these types, which are THE most common late Roman gold forgeries around, bar none.

BTW Saxby's has posted another fake solidus from the 'set of five' so-called 'Beruit' forgeries of Julian, Val I and II, Theodosius I, and Honorius, this time the Val I. There has been no reply to my first e-mails so he knows d**n well what he's doing. I guess the Honorius/Theodosius mismatch makes it a set of six.

Richard

[gibfrog]

O.k., if Richard and Cliff think these are such obvious fakes, that certainly says something about all of us dealers and collectors who have bought these as authentic. ..... Still, this one got by me for a week and apparently also got by Freeman and Sear and Rauch at auction, plus who knows how many direct sales of just regular dealer inventory. I still think for most dealers this is a dangerous fake and especially so since most dealers will never see this discussion.

--Beast

I thought the irony of my post might be evident because I used images from coinarchives - not exactly a place that one looks for obvious fakes. Oh well.......