is this coin Tooled???

[Salem]

Dear all
since this is Vcoins community I will aske what do you think about this coin??
is it tooled???
and if any one have any photo for such an example plz post it to compare it and see if it was tooled or not??
regards
Salem

[marcus flavius]

Salem, my initial reaction was no it was'nt. I can see why you have questioned that it might be. The hair looks very thick and he nose very pronounced. I am not an expect on these but it looks OK to me. After all it is a provincial product. Perhaps someone does have a pic to confirm these with another as you requested

[Roma_Orbis]

Salem,

This coin is not tooled; simply the cleaner has pushed a bit too much his tool on some details of the portrait, removing the superficial and rather thin patina layer and showing the shiny metal. You can also see that the style is correct for the coin; and it's the Pharos! Good and rare coins as usual, Salem, congratulations!

Regards,

Jérôme

[Incitatus]

To properly consider the question, in all fairness, all photographs of the coin need to be considered.. Members please refer to other photos of the coin as it was previously :

Cheers,
Steve

[Incitatus]

Another, as it appeared yesterday :

[BeastCoins]

Salem,

Interesting that you started this thread. When you offered the piece for sale in your store, my immediate reaction, based on the photo, was to ask you if it was tooled. Being a Hadrian collector and have some familiarity, although admittedly not an expert with Alexandrian provincials, this piece looked completely wrong to me. The hair, facial details and surfaces all just looked strengthened or recut. From Steve's response, I have to wonder if he had the coin for sale, it was purchased, cleaned and sold to you as an original coin?

I have to say, the portrait now looks to me a lot more like Antoninus Pius than Hadrian. The uncleaned example with the red background in Steve's post is what I would expect the portrait to look like on this coin.

Best regards,

--Zach

[areich]

Salem,

Interesting that you started this thread. When you offered the piece for sale in your store, my immediate reaction, based on the photo, was to ask you if it was tooled. Being a Hadrian collector and have some familiarity, although admittedly not an expert with Alexandrian provincials, this piece looked completely wrong to me. The hair, facial details and surfaces all just looked strengthened or recut. From Steve's response, I have to wonder if he had the coin for sale, it was purchased, cleaned and sold to you as an original coin?

I have to say, the portrait now looks to me a lot more like Antoninus Pius than Hadrian. The uncleaned example with the red background in Steve's post is what I would expect the portrait to look like on this coin.

Best regards,

--Zach

Zach, in this case Salem cut out the middle man. He bought the coin from Incitatus coins
and he didn't exactly start this discussion either.
Here's another coin that he bought from Steve but this one is clearly not tooled (I'm not saying the Hadrian is, I'm not experienced enough to be certain one way or the other).


It's here:
http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/holyland/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=999
but originally there was no mention of the 'wonderfull black repatinattion'.

[Roma_Orbis]

The portrait is a little bit overcleaned, but doesn't show evidence of tooling; I'm speaking on surface aspect and not style for Hadrian, though I don't feel this style unrealistic for Alexandria.
Both Salem's and Steve's pictures are not lighted the same way, which make them appear quite different, but if you focus on details, you can see no real difference.

Jérôme

[vozmozhno]

Wow, I have to say--in the case of the ROMA--if there was ever an argument in favor of repatination, this is it. The coin really looks much more attractive.

So is there an issue here of what was disclosed and when? In fairness, don't most of the big companies sell stripped and repatinated coins without explicitly stating it? I think we've had a few discussions about the meaning of "nice surfaces" and other such lingo. Disclosure is always a good thing though--it would be nice if everyone did it all the time.

Voz

[areich]

Wow, I have to say--in the case of the ROMA--if there was ever an argument in favor of repatination, this is it. The coin really looks much more attractive.

So is there an issue here of what was disclosed and when? In fairness, don't most of the big companies sell stripped and repatinated coins without explicitly stating it? I think we've had a few discussions about the meaning of "nice surfaces" and other such lingo. Disclosure is always a good thing though--it would be nice if everyone did it all the time.

Voz

Of course some of the big firms do. But then don't people protest loudly, here and in other forums?
Repatinating a coin, tacking another few hundred dollars onto the price then not stating that it's been repatinated is not something I'd expect from a Vcoins dealer.
I personally don't even think they should repatinate (or tool) coins at all.
Selling these kinds of coins I can understand. If you buy such a coin in a lot you can't be expected to throw it away.
I don't really like that either but it's something completely different than doing it yourself.

Disclosure should be mandatory for a Vcoins dealer.

[BeastCoins]

The portrait is a little bit overcleaned, but doesn't show evidence of tooling; I'm speaking on surface aspect and not style for Hadrian, though I don't feel this style unrealistic for Alexandria.
Both Salem's and Steve's pictures are not lighted the same way, which make them appear quite different, but if you focus on details, you can see no real difference.

Jérôme

Jérôme,

I agree with you about the lighting differences causing issues with comparing the two coin images. That always presents a hurdle. And, I agree the style is correct for Hadrian, however, and I stress this is only my opinion and may be difficult to relate in words, but I feel there is a lot more "life" in Steve's image and the eye and cheekbone in Salem's image do not have the same "life". Anyone reading this who has a background in art will understand what I mean and if you don't get what I'm saying, that's because it is nearly impossible to describe. To borrow a French expression, the portrait in Steve's photo has that certain je ne sais quoi and invokes what I would expect from an Alexandrian Hadrian bronze.

--Beast

[BeastCoins]

Of course some of the big firms do. But then don't people protest loudly, here and in other forums?
Repatinating a coin, tacking another few hundred dollars onto the price then not stating that it's been repatinated is not something I'd expect from a Vcoins dealer.
I personally don't even think they should repatinate (or tool) coins at all.
Selling these kinds of coins I can understand. If you buy such a coin in a lot you can't be expected to throw it away.
I don't really like that either but it's something completely different than doing it yourself.

Disclosure should be mandatory for a Vcoins dealer.

Areich,

I would agree that undisclosed repatination is against our VCoins Dealer Code of Ethics. Same with any alteration of a coin (tooling, smoothing, repairs, etc). Many of us do clean coins we purchase as they need some cleaning. For example, many of the denarii I bought at the ANA show last week had some sort of surface deposits on them and I felt it was necessary to remove them to protect the coin from further damage. Unfortnately, this makes silver bright and shiny in many cases, but not unattractively so and does not damage the coins. I don't state specifically that I have cleaned the coin, because I didn't do anything to improve what was already there. Here is an example:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Z5810.jpg

Antoninus Pius, AR Denarius, 153-154, Rome
ANTONINVS AVG PI_VS P P TR P XVII
Laureate head right
COS-IIII
Vesta standing facing, head left, simpulum in right hand, palladium in left
17mm x 19mm, 3.57g
RIC III, 229a

Grade: aEF, bright flan

When I bought the coin, it had that typical surface dullness that many ancient silver coins do from a buildup of oils, etc. from people touching it and it not being completely cleaned when found. If you leave these "dullness" deposits on the coin, eventually it will affect the surfaces. So, I cleaned it with some toothpaste and a soft-bristle toothbrush to get rid of the surface deposits, bringing the coin back to a lustrous state, which I think made the coin look quite beautiful. I do mention the bright flan in the description though, for accuracy. Eventually, it will tone to be very beautiful and will probably pick up a lot of attractive colors, since the metal will tone instead of the previous surface deposits just darkening.

When a coin is improperly cleaned before I receive it, it's important to note that in the description:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Z5710.jpg

Hadrian, AV Aureus, 119-122, Rome
IMP CAESAR TRAIAN HA_DRIANVS AVG
Laureate, draped bust right, seen from behind
P M TR P-COS III
Minerva, helmeted, standing facing, head left, spear in left hand, pointing with right hand at Spanish olive tree at left, rabbit below facing right
19mm x 20mm, 7.12g
RIC II, -- (cf. RIC 70, but unlisted with this bust type); Calico 1309 (citing a specimen in a Hess 1951 Auction, but not this coin)

Grade: Nice VF, but harshly cleaned by someone removing some dark surface deposits, a little of which remains in a small ding in the obverse right field and around some of the letters in the legends. Small scuff on portrait and circulation marks on both sides. Still, all in all, a pretty pleasing coin with a nice portrait, interesting reverse and a type I have not yet been able to find an example sold on-line.

Note: The rabbit on the reverse is in reference to the Roman province of Hispania Baetica and the issue is an appeal for the aid of the gods as Hadrian planned his first travels around the empire, leaving Rome in 121. On this example, Minerva is shown in her "peace-giving" aspect versus her more often seen guise of war.

And in the case of tooling, that really also needs to be disclosed:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/beastcoins/store/catalog/Z4914.jpg

Mithradates III, AE 12 Nummia, 39/40-44/45, Bosporus Kingdom
BACILEWC MI_QRADATOU
Diademed head of Mithradates III right
BACILICHC GHPAIPUREWC
Diademed, draped bust of Queen Gepaepyris right, IB in right field
24mm x 25mm, 7.39g
MacDonald 312
Ex John Vander Weit Collection

Note: Tooled and smoothed as are nearly all Bosporus coins for sale in the past 10 years.

In the case of the Bosporus coin, I bought it thinking it was original, since every Bosporus coin I had seen looks like this. You may recall a thread about these a long time ago where we discuss them and when I learned this is an example of tooling and smoothing. Since I've only been exposed to Bosporus coinage within the past 10 years, I've not yet run into an original coin. It's unfortunate, but must be disclosed since others who are new to the hobby within the past ten years may also think this is an original coin instead of how they should really look. Still, it's collectible in it's own right as it's impossible to find an original example. But, I certainly would discourage people from tooling any new examples that come to light!

--Beast

[Roma_Orbis]

Jérôme,

I agree with you about the lighting differences causing issues with comparing the two coin images. That always presents a hurdle. And, I agree the style is correct for Hadrian, however, and I stress this is only my opinion and may be difficult to relate in words, but I feel there is a lot more "life" in Steve's image and the eye and cheekbone in Salem's image do not have the same "life". Anyone reading this who has a background in art will understand what I mean and if you don't get what I'm saying, that's because it is nearly impossible to describe. To borrow a French expression, the portrait in Steve's photo has that certain je ne sais quoi and invokes what I would expect from an Alexandrian Hadrian bronze.

--Beast

Zach,

The details are more or less the same, but we perceive Steve's original as a better aesthetic rendering; generally patinated or toned surfaces tend to enhance the details and appearance compared to shiny metal, such as Salem's ex.

I will tell why I consider this ex as not tooled:
- consistent overall flat surface
- lack of some details, or presence of flatnesses, that would have been the first target of a tooler
- very convincing natural patina and encrustations (especially, presence of red oxides almost impossible to fake at large scale)

With these same criteria, I will then consider your Mithradates III AE 12 Nummia above as smoothed but not tooled (if I consider tooling as addition/reconstruction of details that were not present on the original coin). All these coin in the last 15 years may come from a single area, where terrain is such that it corrodes bronze in a extended way, leading to big patches on the bronze surfaces. Would you prefer encrustated coins obscuring many details, but bearing the famous privilege "untouched natural patina", or coins with expertly smoothed surfaces revealing all details? I agree that it's great to have untouched natural patinas, but bronze being chimically what it is, fragile to corrosion, in many cases it's better to make some compromise! That's why collecting ancient bronzes is a challenge (the one I chose: see my gallery ;)).

Salem: if you doubt this coin, I'll buy it to you at half price (that will make me start the Alexandrian bronze coinage, I'm fascinated by from years) :D

Jérôme

[Vlad]

Mithradates IS heavily tooled, I would not be surprised if it were cut from a coin worn out beyond recognition. Its style is all wrong.

Regards, Vlad

[Roma_Orbis]

I believe this a bit artificial look is due to smoothing of big red patches in many areas, the cleaner having to find the original surface level; but I don't really see some reconstruction of unexisting details.

Jérôme

[bpmurphy]

Vlad and Beast are correct about the Mithradates. Like a good percentage of the Bosporan AE around today, it has been heavily tooled. There have been so many around that many people take this look as authentic, but when you compare it to an actual untooled coin, the style isn't close to the original. Throughout the 90's these appeared regularly in European auction sales without any mention of the smoothing and tooling.

Bary Murphy

[Salem]

Jerome
I was trying to explain what you were saying about how the dirt can still be at the coin but heddin if you brush the coin, but people who dosent have an experiance with cleaning at least 1000 coin from the type wont know what we are talking about.
Ptolemy coins comes from the same soil and dirt type as Alexandian coins I will make an expermint, look at this ptolemy coin with red dirt.

[Salem]

now look at te same coin after not more than 3 seconds of brass brushing with the same scanne setting, where is the dirt, have it gone???
no it is still there but was enhanced with the surface of the coin, if you chimically treat the coin the coin will look shiny and no dirt, but that dosent mean it is cleaned, what happin is the dirt is still there but have the coin color.
this is a free lesson, but what we learen over years we cant just give away in one houre, this need experiance.
regards
Salem

[Salem]

now look at the same coin 5 minets later, it is still has the dirt, my qustion will be is it better to clean the dirt off the coin or sell it with dirt heddin???
for me I will clean it and sell it to my customer well cleaned and no heddin dirt, some might not agree???
this whole thing took me around 5 minets, but will any one buy the coin like how it came from the ground???? this is imposible, because if you buy the coin with its original patina and dirt you wont see any detailes and you wont even buy it, and I wont sell junk????
look at the photos, the bloury one and the clear one, this is the deferant between the original photo posted by my friend Steve and this last photo, if I clean the coin every one will say I added detailes, but actully the detailes are there heddin and I just remove the dirt .
have I make a point.
how the coin turned in 5 minets from that to this???? sorry you have to learen your self.
and if I clean this coin profisionally and repatinate it then some will screem and say it is completly deferant coin, I understand this :) and you have to wonder realy how, as I said befor I should have said that the coin was repatinated, have I did a mistake by not saying that???? the answer is yes, what ever the explaiation I will say, forgot, didnt come to my mind, was exhusted, did it by perpuse, ignoered it .....
I am telling you I should mentioned that, and for this I am sorry realy sorry.
but I wont stop repatinating such a gem coin, I cant leave the beauty burried under neath dirt, when ever I pass through such a Gem again, I will do again the same thing and will mention next time that it is profesionally cleaned and repatinated.
best regards
Salem

[Salem]

hello again
some one qustioned befor the Desert patina coins, and how they look this nice.
these coins come from the desert, they mostly have black patina underneath the sand, those coin should never be treated with any Acid, or any chimicals, these should be treated very gently, with love and care, you have to clean machinaclly, usually I pend almost half a houre for cleaning one coin, with wonderfull coins I might spend two houres, because you have to remove the right amount of sand and you should never touch the underneath black Patina .

here a coin just came to me few days ago with a large lot, I cleand half and left half for you to compare, I cleaned this one very fast in around 1 minet which is very fast cleaning. and I took them with the same resuluation of the scanner so it will be fair to compare.
this Patina is wonderfull and I am always in love with it.
regards
Salem

and I am offering who qustioned these Desert patina coins to send to him this coin half cleaned and he can see for him self, you just have to work littel nothing will come to you if you dont go after it, you have to work hard to get any thing.

[Roma_Orbis]

Salem,

One question: have you tried to put such a coin in water for a certain period of time (days ...) in order to soften the earth, so the cleaning will be easier?

Jérôme

[Salem]

Jerome
this is fast cleaning no DW used, if you want agreat result put it in DW for at least overnight, and if you clean under mecroscope you will get such a result
http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/holyland/store/viewItem.asp?idProduct=821
this result need at least two houres of working under mecroscope and at least overnight in DW.
but it is wonderfull result.
regards
Salem

[Roma_Orbis]

not bad :p Great coin ....
Yes I had made a try on a late AE from Bulgaria that I left some days in tap water, and it was really easier.

Jérôme

[Salem]

Jerome
with Bulgarian coins you will never have such results ;)
sandy Desert patina comes from two places only, and these areas are realy not that big, both of them togather wont be more than 1000 square Meter size, there is another patina comes from the east, it is the earthen red patina, that comes from a bigger area than the sandy patina, you know each type of dirt have to be treated deferantly :cool:

[Roma_Orbis]

Of course no such final results, but I was speaking of the efficiency of water immersion to soften the earth: I found it helps.

As to the desert patina, I know the 2nd type (are we talking about Homs? ;) ).

Jérôme

[Salem]

heheheh yes Jerome it is and around 300km to the east ;) you can get the same earthen red patina too , but those are not as nice as 500km to the south east where these sandy Desert patina coins in my store comes from. :cool:

[Roma_Orbis]

Salem, let's create the Guild of ancient coins cleaners :D

Jérôme

[Salem]

Jerome
I use a technice to know if the coin from the photo needs more cleaning and it will improve with cleaning, it is just to play with the phots, look at the second picture for the ptolemy coin, ythe dirt is heddin after brushing with metal brass, but if you go to HUE SATORATION in your photo shop program you can tell where is the dirt and how sharp is the coin and even how thick is the dirt, at least %90 of the dirt will apear in deferant color, what wont apear is very small areas where the dirt is covered with a thin metal dirt occure from Acid , for the Ptolemy all the green is dirt hedding, and for the Hadrian all the colors beside gray is deferant thickniess of dirt.
I did that with the Hadrian coin and see for your self the results, you can tell what even to remove and where :D
and then you can use the art of cleaning to remove all that dirt, but not the art of tooling for sure.

these are free lessons I hope people will get help from it.
regards
Salem

[vozmozhno]

if you buy the coin with its original patina and dirt you wont see any detailes

That's why I don't really have a problem with coins that have been stripped and repatinated. I'd rather see the hidden detail than look at a crusty lump just because it came out of the ground that way. Also, I have a number of coins with great detail that can only be seen when you hold them at an angle to a bright light source--the patina is so mottled it acts like camouflage and obscures the detail. I'd love to have such coins professionally cleaned some day.

Voz

[Salem]

Dear Voz
send me some photos to holyland@vcoins.com
I might help, and if you have realy rare promissing coin I will clean it for free, just dont send me a bag of 1000 coin to clean :p
look at my disck I have tens of thousands to clean and around 10000 coming to me soon from my company in Dubai ;)
regards
Salem

[Roma_Orbis]

Vlad and Beast are correct about the Mithradates. Like a good percentage of the Bosporan AE around today, it has been heavily tooled. There have been so many around that many people take this look as authentic, but when you compare it to an actual untooled coin, the style isn't close to the original.

To come back to the tooling/smoothing discussion, sorry but still disagree with all 3 of you. Or is it a vocabular issue? For what I understood of the english words:
- smoothed = removal of external oxides and encrustations
- tooled = addition through use of tools, of details that were not present on the original coin

The limit here is that there are some kind of large encrustations consisting of red cuprous oxides that are sometimes above the coin surface, sometimes 'eating' also the surface. To find the original details, a tool must be used to remove this hard material, at the risk of remove the original details too! This quest for the original details is often made by trial and error, sometimes the removal is not complete and thicker devices (like letters) will result; or removal went beyond the original details surfaces and some details disappear. Is this process smoothing or tooling? Looks more like tooling, but with an intent being the research of original details. For me, this Bosporus AE falls in this category.

Let's compare this coin against another ex (different dies) with quite natural surfaces:

1736

Unfortunately these ex come from different dies but style is quite comparable for the obverse. Smoothing work has been rough and approximate, leaving some details below oxides level (hair lock at neck), or going too far (e.g. cheek a bit flat); reverse is more touchy; for me, the cleaner couldn't find the shape of the eye and eyelid properly; still look a bit 'chinese'.

Now look at these ones:

1737

and compare with this one:

1738

#1, 2, 3 are obviously toold with creation of details (hairlines, ...) and erosion of the fields surface level. #4 looks quite natural with some smoothing, especially on rev.

Jérôme

[curtislclay]

"Smoothing", by my definition, means flattening out by removal of original METAL. The surface of the metal is pitted, so to make it look nicer you scrape away the pitted metal to achieve smoothness at a deeper level.

Removal of mere deposits is, in my opinion, just "cleaning", not "smoothing".

[Vlad]

Jerome,

Bosporus coins 1-4 shown in your post are heavily tooled and chemically treated - there are no natural surfaces there. As for examples 1-3, I would not even call this tooling- these are just modern engravings on old metal :(

Maybe only the second coin shown is just smoothed, but I cannot exclude that the portrait of the queen is "improved" somehow.

Here is an example of Gaepapyris in original condition

Regards, Vlad

[Roma_Orbis]

Vlad,

Your coin is indeed in the "untouched natural patina/surface" condition. A bit of cleaning and surfaces would resemble more like #2 of my 1st pict. It appears that many of these coins have been cleaned, a lot of them smoothed, and many others even tooled (like #1,2,3 of my 2nd pict).

Bosporus coins 1-4 shown in your post are heavily tooled and chemically treated - there are no natural surfaces there. As for examples 1-3, I would not even call this tooling- these are just modern engravings on old metal :(


1-3 are indeed heavily tooled, but a tooler never takes an empty blank piece of metal, the work with tools on metal is too hard to recreate a full detailed coin: bronze is not terracotta! They always use a good basis, that they can improve (such as a VG or Fine grade).

#4 is smoothed only (in the sense Curtis defined). Furthermore if it was tooled, then why is the last part of the obv. legend missing?

Jérôme

[Vlad]

a tooler never takes an empty blank piece of metal, the work with tools on metal is too hard to recreate a full detailed coin: bronze is not terracotta! They always use a good basis, that they can improve (such as a VG or Fine grade).


Metal engravers in Ukraine are not afraid of hard work - it brings good money in Europe and USA!;)

[Salem]

I am realy not Familiar with the type you are talking about, to be able to give my oponion I have to be familiar with the invironment, Soil, Dirt type, and if the coins were found in Grave, ground, cave, water, and ruines soil, all these factores play a big rule how the coin sghould be treated, and how clean it will comes after treating, to be an expert in cleaning methods you have to study many factores when the coin in hand, I will give an example here, look at this coin, it was found in dry, Humed, hot area, if some one who is not familiar with where it was found he might kill the coin or say that the marked stuff are even die rust or flan flaw, corrosion or other type of thing, but since I am familiar with this coin history I will sy simply it is just dirt heddin under the patina, and the coin will be prefect after cleaning.
you have to be knowlodgable about the area where the coins were found, and most of the time the dirt it self will tell you the whole story if you are a good cleaner and if you realy cleaned tons of coins.
regards
Salem

[Salem]

the same coin after cleaned, it took me less than 2 minets !!!!
same scanner same setting, no angles, no cameras.
imagen if I spent 5 minets what kind of result I will get, and Imagen if it was under mecroscope !!!!! or if I did just littel smoothing!!!
it was EF but covered with heddin dirt under the patina, what do you think should I sell it with the dirt heddin or just spent these two minets and clean the heddin dirt???

[Salem]

Dear all
I just hanged the phone with MR . David Sear, he got the Hadrian in qustion, and he said in his won words ( I dont think at all that the coin is tooled, and I belive that you did a very good job in the cleaning) and he added ( those who are not familiar with Alexandrian Hadrian coinage will find the portrit strange but nothing wrong with the coin and I will state that clearly in the Certificate )



I will post the Certificate as soon as it arrives.
Cheers
Salem